Yeah??? But Why....
While thumbing through the September 2008 Guitar Center sale catalog I read the interview with Nikki Sixx and Mick Mars of Motley Crue. I read the following, and I quote.....
"While recording his parts for "Saints of Los Angeles" Mars and producer James Michael decided to use Digidesign's new amp simulation plug-in Eleven instead of traditional guitar amps"
"I usually like to record with real guitar amps, but Eleven changed my mind," says Mars. "James knows my tone really well, and he knows how to stack different amps with different mics to get the sound that I need.. Eleven comes really close to what real amps and mics sound like-------- you actually get the amp buzz and noise and everything else that you get with a real amp. It also gets rid of the hassle of working in a really big room, setting up the amps and placing mics."
Now the part that that really bothered me was "Eleven comes really close to what real amps sound like"............
Now, I love Motley Crue, I've followed them from the begining. The guitar tones on the first few albums maybe lacked something, but the songs and the grooves made up for it. Now granted the best and worst selling records were both produced by Bob Rock, "Dr. Feelgood" and the "S/T" w/ John Corabi on vocals, they both had Guitar sounds from hell... Bob's just good like that, and maybe I'm just a closet Canadian Engineer, but those tones came from guitar amps with great mic techniques, through Neve 1081 pres into 2" 24 Track analog tape.... The up and coming engineers should search for interviews and pictures of what Bob does, it's pretty amazing......
Side note: though "feelgood" was a hit album, the S/T album is one of my favorite albums to listen to. The songs and the production kick ass....
So for a band to do a new album using only guitar plug-ins is just a rip. Even if they did use real amps and just said it in the interview just to promote "Digidesign's newest reason to not have to do it for real..." I bought it the day of release because I'm a fan and yeah it's close but, why????
A band that's still at the top of it's game with great guitars and gear shouldn't have to settle for not using real amps just because the producer says they can... This is why the "comes really close" comment runs all over me......
The art of engineering is becoming a lost art form. This must just send chills or the willies to guitar players like Eric Johnson and Billy Gibbons who spend hours and days getting the perfect guitar tone, or the Nashville session guys that can dial up great tones with real amps on a dime......
I had a conversation with a friend of mine the other day and we were talking about amps and guitars, and he said he loves his Line 6 amp. Now this wouldn't be so bad if he hadn't talked about all the great amps he owned, but the Line 6 modeled them well. It's like having a LA-2A Plug and the vintage hardware version and choosing the plug......
Call me an old fart, there is nothing that sounds as good as a speaker pushing AIR into a microphone......
So I guess I ask, just because you CAN come close, WHY!!!!!!!!!!
"While recording his parts for "Saints of Los Angeles" Mars and producer James Michael decided to use Digidesign's new amp simulation plug-in Eleven instead of traditional guitar amps"
"I usually like to record with real guitar amps, but Eleven changed my mind," says Mars. "James knows my tone really well, and he knows how to stack different amps with different mics to get the sound that I need.. Eleven comes really close to what real amps and mics sound like-------- you actually get the amp buzz and noise and everything else that you get with a real amp. It also gets rid of the hassle of working in a really big room, setting up the amps and placing mics."
Now the part that that really bothered me was "Eleven comes really close to what real amps sound like"............
Now, I love Motley Crue, I've followed them from the begining. The guitar tones on the first few albums maybe lacked something, but the songs and the grooves made up for it. Now granted the best and worst selling records were both produced by Bob Rock, "Dr. Feelgood" and the "S/T" w/ John Corabi on vocals, they both had Guitar sounds from hell... Bob's just good like that, and maybe I'm just a closet Canadian Engineer, but those tones came from guitar amps with great mic techniques, through Neve 1081 pres into 2" 24 Track analog tape.... The up and coming engineers should search for interviews and pictures of what Bob does, it's pretty amazing......
Side note: though "feelgood" was a hit album, the S/T album is one of my favorite albums to listen to. The songs and the production kick ass....
So for a band to do a new album using only guitar plug-ins is just a rip. Even if they did use real amps and just said it in the interview just to promote "Digidesign's newest reason to not have to do it for real..." I bought it the day of release because I'm a fan and yeah it's close but, why????
A band that's still at the top of it's game with great guitars and gear shouldn't have to settle for not using real amps just because the producer says they can... This is why the "comes really close" comment runs all over me......
The art of engineering is becoming a lost art form. This must just send chills or the willies to guitar players like Eric Johnson and Billy Gibbons who spend hours and days getting the perfect guitar tone, or the Nashville session guys that can dial up great tones with real amps on a dime......
I had a conversation with a friend of mine the other day and we were talking about amps and guitars, and he said he loves his Line 6 amp. Now this wouldn't be so bad if he hadn't talked about all the great amps he owned, but the Line 6 modeled them well. It's like having a LA-2A Plug and the vintage hardware version and choosing the plug......
Call me an old fart, there is nothing that sounds as good as a speaker pushing AIR into a microphone......
So I guess I ask, just because you CAN come close, WHY!!!!!!!!!!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mark Capps on -
Yeah " It's Really Close"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't read me but don't ignor me........
There is NO subsitute for moving air............
Thanks for chiming in "Bro".... ;-)
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Permalink Reply by Mark Capps on
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I don't think so... I've seen 'em live and Mick CAN pull it off...................
Various locations??? Read the liner notes before you speak..........
Shit I can't Overdub anything for very long in one spot without being uncomfortable... But the talented rise above..... and the DUDE abides.......
Real guitarist are about purity, not technology!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Right, somebody back me up.... Please........
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Permalink Reply by Bubba Smith on -
The Stones said, "Gimme shelter", Bubba Smith (who agrees with the Dude) said, "Gimme air" and Walter Sobchak said, "This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps".
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Permalink Reply by J.R. McNeely on
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"THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS LARRY!!"
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Permalink Reply by Mark Capps on
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please elaborate on
"are mark. I mic my bogner line 6 every time. Best of both worlds."
and
"Buy still, Put a great player with a blackface or 11, and he will know how to makebit sound amazing."
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Permalink Reply by Mark Capps on
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Sorry about the blog response here, some chicken deleted his entry.....
I leave my response in tact.....
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Permalink Reply by Robert O'Neal on -
It truly offends me at the core to lose the emotional attachment of a great singer with enough gain on a large diaphragm mic such that I can hear her part her lips before taking a breath - and then she sings. Wow. I'm not digressing. I design tube amps for guitarists and simply suggest that the link from pickup to tube grid cannot be fully modeled if you remove the grid. The sensitive and reactive nature of this link is what allows the gifted hands of a guitarist to be translated into the tone that satisfies. Digital ice cream anyone? Honest, its close…
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Permalink Reply by Bret Teegarden on -
I think the underlying problem here is the fact that digital representations that "get close" do nothing but make the less experienced and less talented believe they can easily get on the same level as everyone else and all they have to do is purchase the latest software tool and a fraction of the price and no one will notice their limitations.
Now, am I opposed to "pros" using said tools? No. If I use them they are to save an otherwise inferior guitar sound or to create a new sound within the track. Or it might be something of convenience.
At some point, will one of these companies adopt the philosophy of trying to make something that "sounds better" than the real deal? Is that even possible?
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Permalink Reply by Mark Capps on
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;-)
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Permalink Reply by Dave Hagen on -
Maybe this generation would be able to hear better if they had something other than MP3's through iPods and car stereos. Close enough is as good as necessary when the end quality is so low. Does it really matter how perfect the guitar sound is if it's going to sound small by the time it gets to most listeners?
I'm jealous that so much attention is devoted to HD video and lifelike flat screen monsters, yet earbuds are more popular than HiFi stereos and the MP3 format is dwarfing 44.1/16 .wav's.
I wish I had started trying to get into the music business twenty years ago...
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Permalink Reply by Wayne Davis on
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I agree that the quality of what our generation is listening to is desensitizing most people to the point that they can't distinguish between the formats you mentioned... People are more concerned now with how many songs they can stuff into that 40 gig ipod than the quality of those songs. So, from there comes the task of making small and just as good the same thing, which just doesn't happen. The best result is that it "comes really close."
I do say that the perfection of the guitar sound does matter, even if it is going to sound small in the end. If you take two of the same thing, with one in much better condition, and reduce them to a tenth of their original by taking out pieces that theoretically are not being perceived, I would expect the better original version to also result in the better end version.
Am I just confusing myself? That's quite possible... It is the end of the week after-all...
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Permalink Reply by Bob Britt on -
Depressing reading here... It's sad that there is a whole generation that doesn't know (or likely even care) what they're missing. Sadly, we live in a society where convenience seems to triumph over quality.
I cannot imagine not using real amps. And for a band like Motley Crue to opt to use modeling on a record? I am astounded.
Oh.... this thought just surfaced... Perhaps Digidesign had something to do with it... $$$.?
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