Things that Bug Me Chapter 3, Bad Pro Tools Editors......
I recently got back some files to mix that I record 95% of, several of the songs still needed BGVs and with a masterling deadline looming in the future and my schedule, they had to be farmed out.
Now as I have have said time after time, I DO NOT consider myself Gods Gift to mixers, but maybe just the apostle of neatness.
The Comment Box On Pro Tools: USE IT!!! Who sang it, where did you sing it, who are you, what is your contact info, anything special about the mic or pre amp??? what was the date of YOUR MAGIC recording session.........
Don't send me tracks back labeled: Audio 1, Audio 2, etc.....
Don't send me back files without cross fades.......
Don't send me back crossfades in the middle of breaths......
Consolidate those tracks when you are finished. If you're scared to, make an alt playlist, then crossfade and consolidate..........
Look at the labeling process for the sessions. If there is only one then OK, but if someone goes through the effort to keep track of progress as such:
Title 01 Tracks
Title 02 Lead Vocals
Title 03 Comps/Tuning
Don't send me back sessions that are labeled:
Title 03 Studio Name
This screws up the sequence....
This is the correct way:
Title 04 BGVs Studio Name
Don't place your new tracks at the end of the track list, behind the inactive tracks, under theMIDI track heading UNUSED!!!!
Every engineer needs to read the Pro Tools protocol setup by NARAS. I'll post a link next in this blog...........The schools need to teach this!!!!!! Every intern should be required to memorise It!!!
I could go on but I'll let others post their bad Pro Tools Editors stories.....
P.S. Also, It wouldn't hurt to learn how to use a compressor...............
Now as I have have said time after time, I DO NOT consider myself Gods Gift to mixers, but maybe just the apostle of neatness.
The Comment Box On Pro Tools: USE IT!!! Who sang it, where did you sing it, who are you, what is your contact info, anything special about the mic or pre amp??? what was the date of YOUR MAGIC recording session.........
Don't send me tracks back labeled: Audio 1, Audio 2, etc.....
Don't send me back files without cross fades.......
Don't send me back crossfades in the middle of breaths......
Consolidate those tracks when you are finished. If you're scared to, make an alt playlist, then crossfade and consolidate..........
Look at the labeling process for the sessions. If there is only one then OK, but if someone goes through the effort to keep track of progress as such:
Title 01 Tracks
Title 02 Lead Vocals
Title 03 Comps/Tuning
Don't send me back sessions that are labeled:
Title 03 Studio Name
This screws up the sequence....
This is the correct way:
Title 04 BGVs Studio Name
Don't place your new tracks at the end of the track list, behind the inactive tracks, under theMIDI track heading UNUSED!!!!
Every engineer needs to read the Pro Tools protocol setup by NARAS. I'll post a link next in this blog...........The schools need to teach this!!!!!! Every intern should be required to memorise It!!!
I could go on but I'll let others post their bad Pro Tools Editors stories.....
P.S. Also, It wouldn't hurt to learn how to use a compressor...............
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Bret Teegarden on -
The way I see it, clients are entitled to and are purchasing the result of my work, not the tools or settings that went in to create the finished product.
They can have 2 Track Mix Masters and Tracks. I will make them a consolidated set of files (without my processing) if they want to have multi-track recorded files if it is something recorded and mixed at my place.
I always copy their session(s) to my hard drive and hand it back to them. That way they have all the original parts, takes, notes, playlists, etc. on their drive.
I know some think they are entitled to every setting that comes from my mind, but I liken it to someone buying a box of Christie's Cookies and demanding the recipe. I don't think there is a chance they'd get that.
-
Permalink Reply by Glenn Spinner on -
I get what you're saying Lynn but there are two things I don't agree with.
1) Say you're booked on sessions and they have to go in and fix vocals, they're supposed to wait for you to be available? Sometimes things have to get done and while I am like you and enjoy work, it's just not always in the cards to be available for all sessions. Sometimes subs have to be called in and they need those settings to move forward. Sure it sucks that you can't do it but that is part of this job.
2) Regardless if someone has your settings, they don't have your set of ears. I could take the settings that you have and totally mess up whatever you did the first time. I have no idea where you placed the mic, where the pop screen was, where in the room you had the person standing, where the baffles were, etc. While I understand this point as well, things are never the same day to day as well. Temp and humidity changes will affect the way a vocalist sounds. The time of day will as well since some people sing better at certain times. How much that person was singing will have an affect as well.
If someone wants to access what you've done, they can open up sessions that you've sent the label with all your work on it. Will it mean they can replicate what you do, maybe, maybe not. What you do may or may not work for someone else as they have different ears and perspective on how to do what we do. We as engineers are artists as well and while it sucks that someone could and would steal your settings, they still have to know what to do with them at the end of the day and if it's someone relatively new to the business, they will never have the 30 years you've put into your career to help them match those settings.
I jot down things in the comments box here and there. I do it in case the people I'm working with go, hey, remember that guitar sound we got, what did we do. It helps me get in the general ball park but amps have been changed as well as pres and eq's. Hopefully we get it back to some semblance but no matter we try, it never gets back there completely.
This is all a dilemma for sure and there is no right or wrong. I think at the end of the day we just want our clients to be happy with our work and making the next persons job in the chain easier. Hopefully we all do that.
-
Permalink Reply by Bret Teegarden on
-
Glenn, yes there are two sides to this problem. I don't really care if someone has my settings as much as I care about the completed final mix session settings. Here is why.
In the not so distant past I noticed a less experienced engineer claiming, on their web site, that they had just mixed such and such single by such and such artist.
I thought it was kind of strange since I had just finished mixing the project a few weeks earlier. I decided to listen to their audio file that was posted and it sounded very similar to what I had mixed.
I then did an A/B comparison to the backup copy of the mix file at my place. It sounded EXACTLY the same with one exception, a background vocal part had been added.
From that point on, I decided not to let final mix session files out the door.
If I track a project, I will leave notes and any tracking settings if plugs were used going down, but rarely do I use plugs in tracking.
When is the last time you made recall sheets on a tracking session? I have never seen that done much, really.
It is just final mix files that I protect. I have also started using more outboard effects/processing and summing some through my smaller consoles.
I also take either the ProTools digital output or the output of my desk into another computer where I can add extra magic on the 2 mix if required.... now I challenge any other engineer to match what I do and put their name on it!
They should at least be man or woman enough to make it sound better. -
-
Permalink Reply by Lynn Fuston on -
Glenn wrote:
"1) Say you're booked on sessions and they have to go in and fix vocals, they're supposed to wait for you to be available? Sometimes things have to get done and while I am like you and enjoy work, it's just not always in the cards to be available for all sessions. Sometimes subs have to be called in and they need those settings to move forward."
Need? You said "need."
That's just not true. Like? Maybe. I'm sure they'd like to have everything I did written down. Twenty years ago I was meticulous in keeping notes on 2" track sheets (I know because my tiny architect looking handwriting was the source of much amusement with other engineers and I heard about it), from the mic to the pre to the comp to the EQ. It made things easy when we needed to go back and fix something. But "need?" I think not.
I can't tell you how many times I've been called in after-the-fact to punch lines on lead vocal tracks where I had to use my skill as an engineer to listen "into" the track and figure out what kind of mic, what kind of room, what position, what signal path, what settings were needed to duplicate or come close to matching the sound. As a professional, that's a part of my job. It's called using my ears and knowledge and training. It's why people call me.
I know I'm not always available and things go elsewhere because of schedule or budget. That's unavoidable, just part of the job. -
-
Permalink Reply by Lynn Fuston on
-
Glenn also wrote:
"2) Regardless if someone has your settings, they don't have your set of ears."
That's right. And they can use their ears to do the job they were hired to do. I don't think that's unfair. -
-
Permalink Reply by Glenn Spinner on
-
Lynn, we'll have to agree to disagree then.
-
Permalink Reply by Mark Capps on -
OK, Guys.... Kiss and make up.... One Thanks for keeping a blog almost two years old alive. I think this is important info for the new guys coming up.
But Lynn what is the difference between using the Comment boxes and the way we used to do it. Tech notes with signal paths mics pres compressors. All stuff I used to keep with tracksheets, charts and lyrics... All that got turned in to the label... I'd like your take. I think you are missing the point of the original post. Bad editors with absolutely no documentation...... If I'm trying to match a shitty mic and pre with way too much eq or none at all, I want to know how I'm gonna match it with a Tube 47 summit and tube tech......
BTW: we've all got our ways of doing things. I had the chance to assist for some really great engineers when I started. Mike Bradley, Billy Sherrill, Mike Psnos, Eric Prestidge, John Hampton, Humburto Gatica and I stole from them. Some called it learning, I call it taking what they do that I like and making it my own. Also without actually working with these guys, Mike Fraser, Bob Rock, Brendan O'Brien, Kevin Shirley, Keith Olsen and Bob Clearmountain just name a few, I took their creations and tried to emulate it and make it my own.....
Yes the new guys that don;t have the twenty or thrirty years experience don't have the mature ears yet, but just think about that first session you did where you were the sub guy and had to recreate the situation to overdub and match a vocal. Did you have notes, did you want them, did you need them....
On the other hand, the only difference between mixing through outboard and Plugs are the plugs are more available. Although I have yet to come across ANY two pro tools systems that were 100% the same. So again, plugs vs outboard with technotes????? NO difference to me....
-
Permalink Reply by Lynn Fuston on
-
>>OK, Guys.... Kiss and make up....
No need. We're all professionals.
>>But Lynn what is the difference between using the Comment boxes and the way we used to do it.
There's no difference at all, except one was writing and the other is typing. The difference is the pace. Back when we used to do two lead vocals in a day writing all those docs was easy. Now that we do more songs in less time, it is an issue. I tracked twelve songs in 10.5 hours the other day with five musicians. That's breakneck speed. Doesn't leave a lot of time for much of anything other than bathroom breaks.
>> Tech notes with signal paths mics pres compressors. All stuff I used to keep with tracksheets, charts and lyrics... All that got turned in to the label... I'd like your take.
True. I don't have a problem with that if the engineer wants and has the time to do it.
>>I think you are missing the point of the original post. Bad editors with absolutely no documentation...... If I'm trying to match a shitty mic and pre with way too much eq or none at all, I want to know how I'm gonna match it with a Tube 47 summit and tube tech......
Not missing it. I get horrible stuff that I have to sift through often enough. If it sounds bad, I don't care what they used on it. If it sounds great then my respect for the tracking engineer goes up. If I want to know badly enough, I'll call him up and ask. "Killer vocal sound on that last project. What did you use?"
>>BTW: we've all got our ways of doing things. I had the chance to assist for some really great engineers when I started. Mike Bradley, Billy Sherrill, Mike Psnos, Eric Prestidge, John Hampton, Humburto Gatica and I stole from them. Some called it learning, I call it taking what they do that I like and making it my own. Also without actually working with these guys, Mike Fraser, Bob Rock, Brendan O'Brien, Kevin Shirley, Keith Olsen and Bob Clearmountain just name a few, I took their creations and tried to emulate it and make it my own.....
Everybody has learned from somebody. Teaching is good. I had people that taught me and I do the same for others. I don't have a problem with that.
>>Yes the new guys that don;t have the twenty or thrirty years experience don't have the mature ears yet, but just think about that first session you did where you were the sub guy and had to recreate the situation to overdub and match a vocal. Did you have notes, did you want them, did you need them....
I think I'm the engineer I am because of what I've had to do and what I've had to figure out. Someone tosses me a 1/2" master that's already mixed and says "We need to edit out and resing the third line in the choruses, leads and backgrounds and everything. And no, we don't have the 2" masters or any docs. Can you do it?" Doing that so that no one can tell after the fact is what separates the men from the boys.
Do I want or need someone else's notes? Well, probably not. Would they make it faster? Only if I had the same gear, which I likely don't.
I think a young engineer or novice engineer of any age will do better if they have to sink or swim as opposed to throwing them in with a floatie on. Should you short-circuit someone else's learning by handing them crib-notes? You decide.
>>On the other hand, the only difference between mixing through outboard and Plugs are the plugs are more available. Although I have yet to come across ANY two pro tools systems that were 100% the same. So again, plugs vs outboard with technotes????? NO difference to me....
Until I'm told differently, the engineer's job is to make it sound good, not to leave a trail of technical bread crumbs so others can follow. When my job description changes, I'll let you know.
By the way, I see plenty of tracks that sound horrible with LOTS of documentation. Now THAT is helpful.
;-)
-
Permalink Reply by Mark Capps on
-
I love your last comment..... Why did they bother to document this shit!!!!!
Lynn, you cut and paste like a MoFo!!!!!!!!! Q&A, baby!!!!!!!!
Here's Mine!!!!
Get wise my friend...... Most of the newbies, don't know or can't tell the difference... It's kill or be killed right now........ We've gotta prove ourselves again, against the guys that have home studios charging $25 an hour...........
But these days, two vocals in a day??? Forget that. It's half the album or more. I still try to keep pretty good records even at that pace... Because they "will" want to come back to it, even during a mix.....
But lets face it, at this point in our careers, 90% of what we do is almost auto-pilot. We get set in our ways and use a lot of tried and true methods. The occasional challenge is a plus, but that's why we are professionals..... Never let them see you sweat. Never let them think they can do it without you.... Right????
Make it sound good it correct...... Pro Tools has made it a sink or swim system..... Read my blog on "Class action suit against Digidesign" and read my blog on Intellectual property rights and Damnit, read my blog on the Beatles Re-Masters.... ( I just did a new post on that one) ;-)
-
Permalink Reply by Lynn Fuston on
-
It was not uncommon back then to spend 4-5 hours per song on a lead vocal and one time I spent 13 hours over 3 days on one lead vocal. This was pre AutoTune.
One other pivotal point.
I NEVER took notes for anyone else's benefit but my own. Call me selfish. When I made notes, it was to help me get back to something fast if I suspected we'd recut the vocal or so that, months later when I was mixing, when I said to myself "Man, that snare sounds killer. What did I use on THAT?" I could go back and check.
I was learning the tools and kept copious notes. I was never documenting it for the record label or the artist or the NEXT engineer. No one, apart from me, cared that much.
I like to say "If engineers aren't obsessive about sound and our tools, who else will be?"
I auditioned three different preamps and three different mics on one guitar cabinet on one day. Was I taking notes of which was which? Sure I was, mentally. I learned what I needed and the producer/artist got what he needed. That's why I'm there.
In truth, apart from the tracking engineer, how many people do you think would actually CARE what your CL-1B settings were on that lead vocal? Or what preamp you used? Not many.
-
Permalink Reply by Mark Capps on
-
"In truth, apart from the tracking engineer, how many people do you think would actually CARE what your CL-1B settings were on that lead vocal? Or what preamp you used? Not many."
Wow, I strongly disagree......
I was working on an Unnamed, but Grammy Nominated project two years ago. I was brought some files to do a little editing on. I put up the first song and was completely blown away with the sound of the lead vocal. Now take in mind this is one of the best singers around, but I would swear that she was standing with her nose 3 inches from mine singing to me. I had to call the engineer that cut the vocals and find out the path. C24 > Console Pre > CL-1B......... Simple, but I wanted to know. I think there are a lot more of us that want to know than you think, Lynn..... Now in defense, I had to re cut into this great sounding vocal and the tech notes helped to dial it back in. The first engineer wasn't available for that day, so I had to match it. Could I have done it by ear, yes, but the fact that it was documented help get it up to speed, seeing that the artist was there and ready to do her fixes and get home.....
-
Permalink Reply by Anita Walls on -
I just love your comments and could not agree more. So many engineers so little experience...lol..
FYI I once got a dat from a client at -20. I called the engineer......and he told me that he did it on purpose to allow for headroom in the mastering....what.....ya think....
So much gear...so little knowledge.
[url=http://www.musicrowmastering.com/][img]http://www.musicrowmastering.com/musicrowimages/music%20row%20maste...[/img][/url]
- ‹ Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- Next ›
Latest Activity
Great Design
01:53
From the musical/drama "Courage to Stand: The Story of Esther."
© 2013 Created by Bret Teegarden.
