Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Lynn Fuston on October 28, 2010 at 2:06pm

The bigger question than "How do you compete with a $10/hr. studio" is alluded to in Marc's answer.

The bigger question is "How do you compete with FREE?"

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Permalink Reply by Pete Warren on October 29, 2010 at 7:26am

By the way, are you enjoying your new vintage 1073's? I so wanted to buy them, but I am glad they were able to stay in the family at least.

You just have to remember that in the hands of someone with a lack of experience, the Golden Age is as good as the Neve. You can still hear the bedroom walls and comforter through the Neve. Maybe even more so.

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Permalink Reply by MArc-Alan Barnette on November 14, 2010 at 11:09pm

Lynn,

I don't know if this is a missprint but I didn't say any of this. I don't get into the technical aspects of recording. You might mean to respond to someone else in this thread.

MAB

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Permalink Reply by Bret Teegarden on October 28, 2010 at 3:34pm

"I think low studio prices, while they seem threatening to life long engineers with millions invested in their tools, are a good thing and will re-introduce the public to the value of paying someone else to do it for them."

Greg, the only people who should be threaten by this mindset are guys who are young, starting out, full of hope and ambition, with it all figured out.

By now, most engineers who have invested millions (less really) in gear and have had life long successful careers have sufficient assets, contacts, clientele, relationships, investments, copyrights and so forth to stay relatively busy for their latter years or position themselves to survive and flourish. Not to mention they are in positions to help younger artists achieve their dreams. Not everyone is in this situation, but a lot are. Some of them may have to sell some assets and equipment if business continues on a downward spiral, but they will still have the credibility and body of work to help get them more work or different kinds of work moving forward and their investments in high quality gear are still worth something.

What are guys like you going to do if no one wants to pay for your services or gear or you keep having to slash your rates?

If you are content to work in the future for 1/2 of what you are making now with your Mackie and ADATS , keep on this path and ideology.

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Permalink Reply by Bret Teegarden on October 28, 2010 at 3:40pm

I should clarify, that I think what you do with the kind of gear and experience you have is fair and I admire your drive. I think our beef with ads like the ones mentioned is low balling with high-end professional gear combined with no discernible body of experience or discography, plus mis-representing that experience.

I think you have a mis-perception if you think long time established engineers are "threatened" by this ad. We're not! We are concerned for the future of our industry, which is you.....

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Permalink Reply by Lynn Fuston on October 28, 2010 at 11:29pm

I see lots of the young guys, the ones that are seconding now and should be sitting in "the hot seat"in the coming years, bailing out of the music business because it's clear to them that they can't make a decent living doing it. They're at the point where they are starting families and having major monthly bills and they had hoped that they would be working more and making more by now. Unfortunately, now there are studios [complete with engineer] that are charging less than they need to make for their engineering hourly rate alone. That's a tough sell. They're getting out because they don't see it getting any better. That's unfortunate.

Sadly enough, I'm seeing the same thing happening with some of Nashville's stellar studio talent as well. Studio veterans with 20-30 years of experience that are seeing their incomes dwindle to the point that they are less concerned with doing what they love (studio work) and more concerned with making a living.

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Permalink Reply by Greg Hopkins on October 29, 2010 at 11:28am

Thanks Bret. I love NMP for discussions just like this one. All I hear in my classes is that the industry is changing and that much of what is in my textbooks is either already obsolete or will be by the time I graduate. Think outside the box, they tell me, that's how you will be successful in this business because the business model that has been used and followed for years is dying. So I get the wheels turning and think I have a breakthrough - and then you guys straighten me out!
Help me here-
I don't understand what else we can do. If the trickle down effect of less money from the big commercial releases is what's doing us in, and the home user doesn't value our services at the rate we need and want, combined with a changing role of the recorded product in the marketplace and advances in tech, then where's the hope? If not lower prices in search of more more quantity, then what? Is it possible that the "new label" is a combination of publisher and marketing, by using the recordings as adverts?
btw, I never use the adats anymore and the mackie is for cue mixing. I understand your point though, and I AM lowballing to get experience. I hear you guys say that I may not be able to make a decent living at it, that there just aren't enough jobs that pay a fair wage to go around, that the schools put out too many graduates and that they all just pile up at the bottom of the totem pole...
I say let 'em pile up. I'll stand on them to reach the top.
I do this because I love it, and at the risk of sounding immodest, when I love something and devote my time to learning and growth, I get very good at it quickly and there is no stopping me. I will find a job, and I am going to be successful in this biz, thanks in part to advice from you veterans. The love of my work and my determination to succeed is what will set me apart from the masses of knob turners and put me in demand among potential employers and clients. I may not have it all figured out yet, but watch out! This gherm is on the way up.

As far as charging so little for the equipment they offer, well they're nuts, but I wish them luck.

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Permalink Reply by Bret Teegarden on October 30, 2010 at 6:26am

Greg,

As long as you don't represent yourself as "Nashville's Best Award Wining Engineer" or offer a complete mobile truck 96 track recording service for $20/hr I think you will be fine doing what you are doing.

I don't think the model for service related industries surrounding the music industry is dying. It may be changing somewhat and there will always be a weeding out process like Marc-Allen suggested.

I would suggested that you seek out relationships with artists and bands or producers (that are more than just objects of promotion) whom you feel have a better than average chance of making an impact on the music scene. These relationships will be the only ones that will sustain and grow your business. You've mentioned several times that low balling can bring quantity and get people off the sidelines and paying for recording again. However, you are not selling widgets. You are selling your time and knowledge. Time is not something you can create more of. So, as you get older and start to face the increases in living expenses, the thought of a family, higher taxes, etc., you need to think about what actions are going to increase your ability to earn what you need to keep up with those increases. Do you really want to be forced to continually increase the number of hours you have to work because you are constantly having to cut your rates? I think most people who continually low ball find themselves in situations where they can't really afford to go the extra mile for a client or provide the level of service they claim they can provide. At some point something has to give, and most often it is quality and customer satisfaction.

The record label business model might be dying, but the laws of return on investment and customer satisfaction will never change.

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Permalink Reply by Beech Creek Studios on October 28, 2010 at 6:25pm

The unfortunate thing is that recording programs and colleges are churning out thousands of graduates every year, and there really isn't room for all of those people at the bottom of the totem pole.

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Permalink Reply by Lynn Fuston on October 28, 2010 at 11:31pm

So Bret, how do you address it? There's always going to be someone cheaper. You really can't stop that. Sort of like Honda couldn't keep Hyundai from bringing $6000 cars into the US.

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Permalink Reply by Bret Teegarden on October 29, 2010 at 7:30am

Oh I don't think we can expect to stop it. Notice I didn't say "This Needs To Be Stopped" in the title of this post, rather "This Needs To Be Addressed." I think we address it by discussing and by education of both the consumer AND those entering into the field. I think most in our industry are just a little bit impressed with themselves and given the right tools, firmly believe they are creating high quality work whether they step into their closet studio or a multi-million dollar recording facility, and frankly, some do, no matter where or with what they work.

Are there going to be people who purchase low quality merchandise? Absolutely. But in the end, real quality and innovation wins, or at least I hope it does.

I guess what I am really trying to say with this thread is I am more concerned with the failure of the person offering such unrealistic price vs. performance and those who will feel the need or be forced to follow.

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Permalink Reply by Pete Warren on October 29, 2010 at 7:44am

I think we have to look to the roots of the issues. Yeah, this is a sad thing to see, but it's not the root of the issue. The primary reason that experienced engineers and A-players are suffering for lack of work is a result of the lack of commercial albums being produced compared to the past two or three decades. Making great records takes four things... Money, talent, experience & amazing songs. There's no money to make great records any more, so most of us, which really means all of us, most of the time, have to find a way to make great records on only three of the four elements. Note that someone with money, talent and experience without great songs, doesn't make a great record. Remove any element other than money, and it's impossible to make a great record. But again, without money, it'll never be heard, even if it's amazing. 'Cause it takes money to promote it.

So the real problem is a lack of money to keep the machine working that keeps the top people employed. It's really an economic issue, not an issue of those who are lacking experience but have money to build a studio and charge a price no one can afford. I can't remember the NARAS statistic exactly, but I think it was Bill Deaton that told me the numbers. There were about 50 commercially released albums in the US a decade ago. That employed a lot of players and engineers in studios. Remember when you'd show up at a studio, and someone would say, "hey, I need you next week if you're available?" That doesn't really happen any more, does it? Now how many commercial albums are released in any given week? Check iTunes. It's a couple a week. Literally. Let's be generous and say it's 5 a week. That means that we're making about 10% of the albums we made a decade ago. Again, my numbers are likely off a little, but that should be about right. THAT is the issue.

If the production of music can be monetized again successfully, we'll see the top players and engineers and producers earning a decent living again. There will always be these guys out there charging way less than the major studios.

If you give any artist a decent budget, and they're being produced by an experienced producer, you'll see that money spent on A-list players and top engineers, and they'll do the work in great studios for much, but not all, of the work. And let's remember that even two decades ago, most major engineers/producers in this town had their own studio, either at home or on the row, so to speak.

If someone knows how to fix this problem, I'll listen. But I could care less if someone is charging $10 an hour for their studio. 'Cause when someone's handed a budget to make a real record, they won't be getting that gig.

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